Maxine Walden: This group is going to be on dreams and dreaming and I see we maybe should start? Not sure if I should begin but I could well do arabella Ella: hiya Maxine ... yes please! Maxine Walden: Maybe I could just do a little introduction. Roger Amdahl: Hello everybodies smoky Ziplon: hello Rodney Handrick: Hi Roger Maxine Walden: My understanding is that there are many ways to view dreams and the dreaming process Rodney Handrick: Who is the moderator? Maxine Walden: Storm has just reminded me that we will log this so that he is turning on the on air sign Maxine Walden: oh, yes, we could use a moderator. Who would like to be? Roger Amdahl: I have no sound...is this on voice ? Maxine Walden: Roger, this will be text Roger Amdahl: okies Roger Amdahl: *turning speakers off ..:)) Maxine Walden: and we take the chatlog for posting. Is everyone aware of that? arabella Ella: yes Roger Amdahl: yep Tenk Kidd: Yes Fefonz Quan: yep Mickorod Renard: yep Rodney Handrick: No, I wasn't aware of chat logs Storm Nordwind nods Storm Nordwind: Please click the ON AIR sign Rodney Rodney Handrick: ok Maxine Walden: Maybe I should introduce myself: Anja Amaterasu: Hi all Maxine Walden: I am a psychoanalyst in RL and have studied one way to think about dreams for several decades Maxine Walden: There are many ways to think about the psyche and admittedly my view is just one. Maxine Walden: I am more interested in the view of dreams as they relate to emotional experiences than I am in the neurobiology Maxine Walden: so my perspective would come from the emotional and experiential view Maxine Walden: I find that dreams seem to display an extraordinary inner intelligence Maxine Walden: in that they seem to organize the sensory experience of the day, input from inner and outer sources CinturaTorrente Boa: well freud said that in 1900 Maxine Walden: and they, the dreams, sem to be problem solvers, and indeed messengers of a sort Maxine Walden: indeed, Cintura. CinturaTorrente Boa: it is not a huge news Wol Euler: shush. Maxine Walden: Maybe it won't seem like news, but maybe it will be of interest to some CinturaTorrente Boa: sure CinturaTorrente Boa: excuse my interruption Maxine Walden: And it seems that we are dreaming all the time, waking as well as sleeping, that this processing is rather constant Maxine Walden: and necessary for the sorting out of experience for the conscious as well as the unconscious regions of the mind Andrej Babenco: pre-sleeping vision Alfred Kelberry: hey guys :) Rodney Handrick: Hi Al CinturaTorrente Boa: ipnagogic allucination Roger Amdahl: aww....have to go RL ( unexpected) ...bye all Alfred Kelberry: maxine the dream expert :) Maxine Walden: Tell you what, all, we don't have a moderator, so I am going to give my little intro and then be open to comments;hope that is OK Maxine Walden: One of the most interesting aspects of the dreaming process for me Maxine Walden: is the meaning-making function of the dream. Rodney Handrick: That's ok with me... Alfred Kelberry: dream-reading? Maxine Walden: By that I mean that the dreaming process seems to transform raw experience Maxine Walden: raw sensory experience into potential meaning...or make that experience potentially thinkable Alfred Kelberry purrs at tenk :) Maxine Walden: and that is rather extraordinary because it really is a transformation which allows thought and meaning to accrue Maxine Walden: And as problem solver: we all probably know about 'needing to sleep' on something; Maxine Walden: that probably is a sorting, sifting function. Maxine Walden: One famouse problem solved was Kekule back in the 1860s whose dream of the snake eating its tail gave him the idea Aurora Kitaj: are we unable to do this in a conscious state? Maxine Walden: that the banzene was a 'circle' in shape Maxine Walden: Aurora, I think we do not have as deep access to our unconscious creative potential via our conscious minds Alfred Kelberry: maxine, mendeleev Maxine Walden: The dream seems to have special access at the boundary between conscious and unconscious regions Alfred Kelberry: presumably saw his periodic table in sleep Maxine Walden: And I find this interesting: the notion of a semi=permeable membrane between conscious function Maxine Walden: and unconscious functioning, arabella Ella: do you mean the alfa state between sleep and waking as the membrane Maxine? Maxine Walden: a quasi barrier which protects the conscious mind from too much raw 'stuff Maxine Walden: that is unprocessed sensory experience which would be disorganizing to our waking selves Maxine Walden: but also a membrane which protects the timelessness, the cosmic, the deeper more chaotic/creative unconscious Maxine Walden: from being overly exposed to surface elements. Keeps a kind of order between the two world, the dreaming process Maxine Walden: may function at this boundary or membrane, to perform its functions as organizer, problem solver, messenger. Maxine Walden: Now I could give an example of a dream, one I offered a few weeks ago, with how I understodd it, or we could open to questions Maxine Walden: ah, one other thing to mention first Maxine Walden: How to foster our dreaming or remember our dreams: Maxine Walden: my sense is that our trying to be reflective of our inner functions, Maxine Walden: paying attention as perhaps a mothering person does to her small child when she observes and gives meaning to an experience Aurora Kitaj: clearly the dream function serves an important purpose in hellping us to function. But there remains the issue of how to explain scary dreams to small children who cannot forget them CinturaTorrente Boa: i'm a composer, what about the connection with onirico (dream state) and the musical creative function, miss maxine. Aurora Kitaj: nightmares Maxine Walden: that the child cannot know for itself -- this reverie function, naming and giving meaning seems to be what the dream function is really doing Maxine Walden: and I think we can foster that function by setting the stage for reflective attention or reverie to our inner processes Alfred Kelberry: aurora has an on hand experience i can tell :) Maxine Walden: OK, open to questions, let's see who has asked some already Mickorod Renard: maxine, are there not diferent types of dreams,,like for example profound dreams,,that seem to be very very important, and almost or maybe visionary? arabella Ella: I think it would be great to first hear your dream example Maxine please? Fefonz Quan votes for example too Maxine Walden: lets see, scary dreams, the musical creative function, and the different 'types' or depths of dreams, all really valuable points Mickorod Renard: I am happy for an example Alfred Kelberry: ouch, tenk is not happy :) Rodney Handrick: And what about dreams that are so vivid that your remember it as if you actually experienced it in your conscious state? Maxine Walden: yes, and the vivid dream as if 'it really happened'. Alfred Kelberry: rodney, sometimes even taste included Rodney Handrick: yes Alfred Kelberry: like ice-cream Maxine Walden: Why don't I try to briefly address a couple of these questions: Alfred Kelberry: that was unusual Rodney Handrick: Really Alfred...that is unusual Maxine Walden: the scary dreams of the child may be when the dreaming function is not developed sufficiently in the young child Mickorod Renard: and those the give visions of unrelated events that happen later in rl Maxine Walden: to encompass the intensity of the usually inner fear/conflict. That function develops 'holding capacity' as one grows in terms of metabolizing intense affect to allow the sleeper to remain asleep as Freud observed Alfred Kelberry: maxine, as if his membranes don't function properly? Maxine Walden: So the nitemares of young child may usefully be thought of as not quite doing their job. Maxine Walden: yes, as if the membrane has been insufficient, good way to put it Alfred Kelberry: i see Maxine Walden: and the mothering person, does some of that function then for the child Fefonz Quan: are they differnt than those of adults? Maxine Walden: And the so vivid dream may be a bit of the same thing, barrier not quite sufficient for disguise/metabolizing to occur arabella Ella: yes, what about nightmares which adults have? Tenk Kidd: Maxine, how long are the periods of 'dreaming' -somtimes I experience a dream that I recall being much longer than the time I was asleep. Does a sense of time get scrambled in dreaming? Alfred Kelberry: it sure does for me Maxine Walden: Adults' nitemares, may be again that insufficient barrier and dreamwork, but also it may be that the nitemare is trying to tell us something Maxine Walden: a messenger of a sort; guess I have two thoughts about that Andrej Babenco: this is sure Maxine Walden: one is the insufficient barrier which needs conscious thought, often help from a trusted friend Maxine Walden: but another thought is that sometimes we need a two by four to get our attention Alfred Kelberry: maxine, they could do the same to a child -be a message :) Fefonz Quan: two by four? Maxine Walden: toward something, a conflict, inattention, something we may not be paying sufficient attention to Mickorod Renard: a big stick Alfred Kelberry: which puts membrane "development" under question :) Maxine Walden: Fefonz, sorry, a big stick arabella Ella: two by four? Maxine Walden: yes, Alfred, I think that membrane development is a relative thing Alfred Kelberry: "2 by 2, hands in blue" :) Maxine Walden: but we all have situations of intensity that probably would strain the average 'membrane' function Flight Band: All Go Alfred Kelberry: is this membrane idea your concept? Maxine Walden: we had a question from a composer, Cintura, would you mention it again? Alfred Kelberry: yes.. music in a dream Maxine Walden: no, Alf, it is a concept of Wilfred Bion, a British psychoanalyst of some note CinturaTorrente Boa: ok CinturaTorrente Boa: well CinturaTorrente Boa: i'm an italian composer that studied 4 year psicology Alfred Kelberry: hi, vik :) CinturaTorrente Boa: i read all that we need CinturaTorrente Boa: freud CinturaTorrente Boa: jung CinturaTorrente Boa: ferencsi CinturaTorrente Boa: lacan CinturaTorrente Boa: reic CinturaTorrente Boa: eccetra Maxine Walden: wonderful authors, yes CinturaTorrente Boa: (reich) CinturaTorrente Boa: but CinturaTorrente Boa: i have many, many objection that unfortunately i can't explain so good in english CinturaTorrente Boa: unless you speak italian CinturaTorrente Boa: anyway Alfred Kelberry: give it a try, boa :) Mickorod Renard: u doing well CinturaTorrente Boa: call me torrente CinturaTorrente Boa: anyway Alfred Kelberry: ah, sorry, torrente :) arabella Ella: I could translate italian to english if you need any help Maxine Walden: wonderful, ara CinturaTorrente Boa: i think that verbal thought and musical thoughts are our contemporary dichotomy CinturaTorrente Boa: and that the musical thought is the real way to undersytand the unconsciousness Andrej Babenco: as feeling ?? Fefonz Quan: over the barrier of words... CinturaTorrente Boa: so one day i quit with study of psicology CinturaTorrente Boa: and i started to thinking musically CinturaTorrente Boa: and i can tell to you all CinturaTorrente Boa: that the real secret Andrej Babenco: yes..music is mathematic plus feeling... CinturaTorrente Boa: that Freud lacan and company wrote CinturaTorrente Boa: are ALL in the musical thought. Andrej Babenco: a great mix CinturaTorrente Boa: stop for now CinturaTorrente Boa: e se volete parlo italian Maxine Walden: they did not take into account, those authors, the impact of the mother's voice, that music, on the developing fetus Andrej Babenco: but in a mature mind ?? arabella Ella: Torrente I dont think many people would understand italian Maxine Walden: and the subsequent melodic nature of her communications to her child, the music, not the words Alfred Kelberry: freud thought in terms of music? huh? CinturaTorrente Boa: that's the main verbal problem!!!!! Maxine Walden: I think Freud was not as in touch with music as with words, I believe, but you know I am not an expert in that CinturaTorrente Boa: the musical thought is universal even into the dream CinturaTorrente Boa: THERE IS NOT LAPSUS IN MUSIC Maxine Walden: but I do know that autistic like children who cannot manage to understand the spoken word understand that same word sung CinturaTorrente Boa: freud in "psicopatologia della vita quotidiana" wrote a lot of lapsus Aurora Kitaj: really? Maxine Walden: lapsus? CinturaTorrente Boa: yes because Aurora Kitaj: Maxine that is very interesting Maxine Walden: I thought so as well, Aurora arabella Ella: he means 'psychopathology of the everyday life' arabella Ella: lapsus - as in forgetting CinturaTorrente Boa: the verbal thought is a limitated way to thinking musically CinturaTorrente Boa: even in the dream Aurora Kitaj: Autistic children wiht Aperges' syndrome can be very musically gifted Maxine Walden: thanks, Ara CinturaTorrente Boa: we think with words Maxine Walden: a kind of thinking, but not emotional thought CinturaTorrente Boa: ok maxine but Aurora Kitaj: and they can be mathematically gifted, which supports Torrente's ideas of the link between maths and music CinturaTorrente Boa: i don't wanna bother you CinturaTorrente Boa: but Maxine Walden: and that is where the dream is so creative, as is music, perhaps, taking in the emotions CinturaTorrente Boa: let me say one thing Maxine Walden: yes, please CinturaTorrente Boa: so.. Andrej Babenco: hey !! music is not only mats !!!! Aurora Kitaj: understood Aurora Kitaj: it's feeling Aurora Kitaj: too Andrej Babenco: also... CinturaTorrente Boa: you psicoanalist, psicologist, believe that the "emotion" is a kind of second nature to think CinturaTorrente Boa: well, think is UNTRUE CinturaTorrente Boa: not rational CinturaTorrente Boa: if we cant explain the emotional thought CinturaTorrente Boa: is because we miss the words! CinturaTorrente Boa: i mean CinturaTorrente Boa: and not "vice-versa) Maxine Walden: the emotional 'thought' seems to link with previous emotional experience, something that words do not necessarily do Andrej Babenco: yes, and specially here in SL...happen.. Aurora Kitaj: autistic people can have difficulties with emotion, and emphathy CinturaTorrente Boa: the music can become clearly what the emotion are CinturaTorrente Boa: and that is a superior thing, respect all kind of "RATIONAL" thought CinturaTorrente Boa: stop Alfred Kelberry: music not only can, but it does, all the time CinturaTorrente Boa: thank you CinturaTorrente Boa: that i wanted to say Andrej Babenco: why SL is full of dance club ?? Fefonz Quan: Yet music is also a kind of language, CinturaTorrente Boa: and sorry again for my bad english Maxine Walden: and for me the notion of linking the experience of music with the early in utero experience of the mother's voice is interesting a s alink with emotions Fefonz Quan: and can differ by culture Andrej Babenco: becouse music and empaty are correlated.. Maxine Walden: not sure I would rank hierarchically but emotional/musical is perhaps more encompassing than 'rational' thought, more Maxine Walden: encompassing of the whole of human experience Maxine Walden: music probably reaches far down into our evolutionary past Andrej Babenco: yes Maxine Walden: as each of us probably can attest when we feel moved by music arabella Ella: yes and thre are some things which are difficult to be expressed in words or rationally for that matter Alfred Kelberry: i didn't get the connection between fred's work and music, though Alfred Kelberry: *freud Tenk Kidd: I sometimes exlerience having a 'thought' that I later find myself structuring it with words or images. Maybe dreaming is the same sort of process without conscious constraint? Aurora Kitaj: is empathy the opposite of rationality? CinturaTorrente Boa: Freud doesn' enjoy any music Maxine Walden: not sure I can help out there, Alf, my notion is that Freud was more into the rational word than the musical Andrej Babenco: no !!! Andrej Babenco: this is a stupid thiing to say Maxine Walden: Tenk, yes, I would agree CinturaTorrente Boa: he wrote that many times Alfred Kelberry: torrente, does it mean his ideas are senseless? Maxine Walden: for me empathy is more encompassing than rationality CinturaTorrente Boa: of course not CinturaTorrente Boa: i loved freud CinturaTorrente Boa: but CinturaTorrente Boa: like a verbal thinker Andrej Babenco: i love Jung CinturaTorrente Boa: a genial verbal thinker Storm Nordwind notices that the hour is almost up arabella Ella: you mean Freud is so rational his rationality is limiting his views? Alfred Kelberry ignores time Maxine Walden: yes, Storm, thanks for reminding us of the time Mickorod Renard: are we saying that the prossesing power is greater in a dream state than whilst awake? arabella Ella: Maxine ... I would love to hear your example before the session is over please? Maxine Walden: This workshop is scheduled for the next three weeks at this time. CinturaTorrente Boa: but also that is UNTRUE CinturaTorrente Boa: he was so smart to let believe people that people could feeling better with the analisys CinturaTorrente Boa: think at the problem of tranfert CinturaTorrente Boa: transfert Maxine Walden: You know, the dream example would take maybe 10 minutes to mention and offer my understanding; I would be Maxine Walden: happy to begin the next session with that dream and my understanding of it CinturaTorrente Boa: people needs to verbalize their emotion but.. Alfred Kelberry: ara, it's funny. this discussion about freud brings us back to emperical approach (freud) vs pheno (music) :) Andrej Babenco: need talent fordo that arabella Ella would love to hear Maxine's experience today if possible ... and feels others may wish this too CinturaTorrente Boa: the only way to get an healthy mind is not the verbalization of the world CinturaTorrente Boa: like we are doing right now arabella Ella: yes Alfred it certainly does ... the rational versus the phenomenal or felt experience somehow Maxine Walden: Maybe we should stop for now , even though our thoughts could go on and on, which is part of what's fun in SL. Alfred Kelberry: torrente, that's kind of.. too radical :) Mickorod Renard: I feel what you are saying Cintura Maxine Walden: I have to go in about 3 minutes anyway and could not do justice to the dream and its discussion in that time. CinturaTorrente Boa: but is to think the world in a musical way, for the highest problem Alfred Kelberry: but i get the idea, too Maxine Walden: I promise to start the next session with the dream CinturaTorrente Boa: and for the HUMAN problem ok CinturaTorrente Boa: we have the verbal thought Wol Euler applauds. Thank you Maxine, that was very interseting. Maxine Walden: I will need to leave now, and thanks everyone for coming arabella Ella: ok Maxine I understand ... just hope i can make it next time ... smile Mickorod Renard: bye maxine ty Aurora Kitaj: Thanks Maxine Aurora Kitaj: fab CinturaTorrente Boa: you're welcome Storm Nordwind: Thank you Maxine. See you next week same time! Scathach Rhiadra: thank you Maxine:0 arabella Ella: thanks Maxine Alfred Kelberry: actually, we speak in words, but not think in them Mickorod Renard: thankyou cintura too Fefonz Quan: Bye maxine Maxine Walden: bye all CinturaTorrente Boa: and you all can listen my music and read my verbal thought about that. Tenk Kidd: Thanks Maxine, very interesting. Alfred Kelberry: bye, maxine, thank you for this interesting discussion.
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