Pila Mulligan: hi Stim
Alfred Kelberry: hey, stim!
Eliza Madrigal: Yes...there was this
lemon/cayenne tea recipe going around,but after a few days upset the
system a bit...will think to try rosemary
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stim
Wester Kiranov is Online
Stim Morane: Hi Eliza and Pila!
Pila Mulligan: cayenne is hot, of
course
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alfred Kelberry: i really liked ginger
tea advice (korean thing apparently)
Pila Mulligan: we're talking home
remedies for colds :)
Alfred Kelberry: i add honey in it
Pila Mulligan: hi Storm
Eliza Madrigal: Love ginger tea...good
to flight inflammation
Storm Nordwind: Hi Pila
Eliza Madrigal: with one m...inflamed
my word
Storm Nordwind waits to rez
Pila Mulligan: yes, and some garlic
also for incfectious stuff
Solobill Laville: Hi, folks :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Hi bill
Pila Mulligan: hi Scath, Fefonz Solo
and Wol
Alfred Kelberry: hi, storm, sol
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello all:)
Wol Euler: hello alf, stim, wester,
eliza
Alfred Kelberry: oh, so many of you
coming in :)
Alfred Kelberry: hey, wol
Wol Euler: and pila :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Wester
Fefonz Quan: Hello all :)
Wester Kiranov: hi all
Alfred Kelberry: btw, pila. i met a guy
yesterday, he had a very similar look :)
Stim Morane: Hi everyone!
Alfred Kelberry: em.. forgot his name
now
Pila Mulligan: may be a cousin, Alfred
Solobill Laville: Scáth
Alfred Kelberry: yes, could be :)
Eliza Madrigal: I think I'll move
because I'll need to leave early...will make room for others
Pema Pera is Online
Solobill Laville: Eliza, is so
polite... :)
Eliza Madrigal: I do try... :)
Stim Morane: :)
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, this is most
coziest place in the cafe :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) fluffy cushions
Pila Mulligan: hi Pema
Alfred Kelberry: yep and warm fireplace
Wol Euler: hello pema
Alfred Kelberry: hi, pema
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
Artemisia Svoboda: hi everyone
Stim Morane: When Storm first build the
cafe, I tried to sit in every area ... they all seemed cozy!
Pema Pera: Hi everybody! (sorry, will
have to leave at 2:15 . . .)
Stim Morane: Yes, too bad.
Eliza Madrigal: So this is the leaving
early section :)
Stim Morane: Let's wait another minute
or two, then start.
Pema Pera: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu, Pema
Pema Pera: (yes, it's the lecture
series I am leading in RL at 5:15 pm EST ....)
Pema Pera: Hi Eliza
Solobill Laville: /sca
Stim Morane: OK
Stim Morane: Hello and welcome!
Stim Morane: After two odd starts
contending with second life basics and also a computer meltdown,
we've just begun to follow a little exploratory journey together. So
this is really only the second meeting of our new series on science
and contemplation.
Stim Morane: Did some of you do the
homework from last week?
Solobill Laville: mmm hmmm
Wester Kiranov: yes
Scathach Rhiadra: yes
Fefonz Quan: a little
Stim Morane: OK, great. We'll get to
your experiences in a bit.
genesis Zhangsun is Online
Storm Nordwind looks at his shoes
Stim Morane: Let's start at the
beginning then.
Stim Morane: For now, I'm concentrating
on the nature and role of View in traditional contemplative practice.
The point is to give us all a common ground for some delicate
discussions later, regarding how contemplation might be understood in
the modern, scientifically-informed context. The implications bear on
both theoretical issues and on living --- living in a fully
meaningful way.
Stim Morane: So, let's get to work! As
before, I want to invite you to perform a couple little contemplative
experiments, each hinging on the issue of the power of View.
Stim Morane: We will step through the
same set of exercises we used last week, because in fact there is a
lot to notice in the performance, the “doing” of such things ...
I spent years in mountain retreats doing practices like this, without
ever exhausting their significance for life, ethics and spirituality.
Stim Morane: Try this---spend the next
two minutes working with the following token practice: breathe
normally, and count each exhalation. So start by counting the first
exhalation as "one", and the second one as "two",
etc..
Stim Morane: Frame this practice with
the “view” that an unfocused, scattered mind lies at the heart of
many of life's problems, and that the practice should be used to help
you learn to control the mind so that it eventually suffers no
distractions and enjoys strict, uninterrupted awareness.
Stim Morane: This shouldn't be a
stretch... such a view is common.
Stim Morane: If you lose the breath
count, be aware that that has happened and start again at "one".
Don't cheat! ?
Stim Morane: Count towards a total of
twenty-one. I'll be the timekeeper, and will stop you at the
two-minute mark.
Stim Morane: Start the little practice
now.
Wol Euler: (I want ot close my eyes,
will you ring a chime or something please?)
Stim Morane: I'll text a stop, someone
else can chime?
Fefonz Quan: i guess
Alfred Kelberry is done counting; looks
around
Stim Morane: OK, good ... that's two
minutes. Please tell me: are there questions, difficulties or
observations you would like to discuss?
Stim Morane: Chime?!
Wol Euler: ty
Wol Euler: (it's ok I heard the typing
:)
Storm Nordwind laughs
Stim Morane: For starters, do many of
you prefer to keep your eyes closed?
Storm Nordwind: not me
Stim Morane: Yes, I thought so re the
typing
Solobill Laville: no
Pila Mulligan: no
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, dometimes
Stim Morane: Good
Wester Kiranov: i like them open
Alfred Kelberry: counting distracts me.
keeps me focused on my breath.
Wol Euler <- beginner
Eliza Madrigal: Not with this one
Stim Morane: I would encourage "eyes
open" if possible
Stim Morane: But we can talk about that
now, if you like
Wester Kiranov: are we supposed to stop
at twenty-one, or restart?
Solobill Laville: (beginner = good,
Wol)
Alfred Kelberry: i'm alright with eyes
open
Stim Morane: If you get all the way to
21, start at 0 again
Stim Morane: but if you get vague about
the count, start at 0
Stim Morane: This is central to "seeing
the mind"
Stim Morane: A question: what "self"
can you see as being centrally involved in this approach? What sense
of action, and of time? Do you see how local, determined, and
channeled it is?
Pila Mulligan: the breathing self :)
Stim Morane: Yes. :)
Stim Morane: Does the breathing self
really help breathing?
Wol Euler: my time sense was completely
off, I thought it was about 40 seconds.
Stim Morane: Yes, I fel that way too.
Stim Morane: Partly it's the technical
issues, chime, timing etc
Alfred Kelberry: not for me. i find it
hard to relax counting.
Stim Morane: And 2 minutes isn't very
long to get started on this
Stim Morane: Alfred, does your tight
focus on counting help counting?
Wester Kiranov: i got irritated at the
texting during this exercise
Stim Morane: Yes, so that would count
as a "distraction"
Wester Kiranov: and i wouldn't during
exercise # 2 or 3
Stim Morane: Yes, precisely.
Solobill Laville: ah
Stim Morane: Shall we go on to exercise
#2?
Solobill Laville: sure
Storm Nordwind: fine with me
Stim Morane: This time, count the
breath as before, but instead of practicing the sort of mind control
that figured in the first approach, meet all distractions with
compassionate inclusion. So anything that arises within your nature
which seems likely to throw you off or make you lose the count should
be met in a welcoming and inclusive way... and an _appreciative_ way!
Stim Morane: The view here is that
there are no real distractions, only things that we haven't yet
learned to appreciate as actually contributing toward a larger sense
of presence. Practice that way.
Stim Morane: I will stop you at the
two-minute mark.
Pema Pera is Offline
Stim Morane: Please go ahead.
Stim Morane: That's 2 minutes
Stim Morane: :)
Fefonz Quan: 10.
Stim Morane: Here the view was that
everything was included
Stim Morane: Can "distractions"
actually contribute to "counting"?
Stim Morane: What do you experience?
Fefonz Quan: they don't contribute, but
don't distract neither
Storm Nordwind: I found that I wanted
to stop counting to more fully experience the wonderful inclusion of
everything else. The counting was the distraction from the inclusion
Stim Morane: OK
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: Interesting, Storm!
Eliza Madrigal: Felt that way too
Wester Kiranov: i found my eyes tended
to unfocus a bit
Fefonz Quan: the counting took just a
small effort ant time
Stim Morane: But since we're being
friendly to distractions, it's not a bad idea to be friendly to the
nasty counting!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Stim Morane: It too is our presence,
our life
Stim Morane: Anyway, a good experience
you're mentioning!
Stim Morane: Some of you volunteered to
work on this practice as homework since last Thursday. Do you have
anything you’d like to report, or raise, based on your practice at
home?
Solobill Laville: It is easy to smile
while doing this
Stim Morane: Yes, I literally do
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: Homework?
Solobill Laville: Yes, that is from my
homework
Stim Morane: OK
Stim Morane: so the dog didn't eat your
homework
Solobill Laville: I've done it before,
just naturally, I guess, but this made it happen
Stim Morane: Yes
Stim Morane: and it is indeed a natural
response
Stim Morane: That's part of my point
Stim Morane: anything else?
Wester Kiranov: I found there was more
space in 2 than in 1, and much more space in 3 than in two
Storm Nordwind: Happiness spontaneously
arises from a peaceful mind
Stim Morane: yes, We'll get there soon
...
Stim Morane: Yes, literally, Storm
Wol Euler nods
Stim Morane: And inclusiveness may be
part of that
Stim Morane: otherwise we're back to
sights, typing sounds, etc being a "distraction"
Stim Morane: followed by a judgment,
etc
Stim Morane: Anyway, moving on...
Stim Morane: Consider: it's easy to
think that the first, “control-oriented” practice is somehow
wrong-headed, or trivial or unnecessarily limited or limiting. But
let's not be too cavalier about this --- I want to ask you now to see
how the view implicit in that first approach may actually still be
present in your way of using the second, more appealing, approach.
Can you see its influence, even in cases where you've officially left
it behind?}
Stim Morane: Try the 2nd practice
again, but investigate: be sensitive to the question of whether View
#1 is infecting View #2. Try it now.
Stim Morane: Another two minutes, of
practice 2 ... but seeing if View #1 is lingering
Stim Morane: Start now
Stim Morane: OK, back to the ranch
Stim Morane: OK, good. So … do you
see contamination of view #2 by view #1? Could you let it go? Or is
it entrenched?
Artemisia Svoboda: I can feel hardly
any difference at all between 1 and #2
Wester Kiranov: I had to let it it go
because my husband came back from work just now - so I just worked
with that
Fefonz Quan: i felt that i shouldn't
get back to one, because the parallelism of view 2 is what allows me
to go n counting without loosing it up
Solobill Laville: It seems to also help
to contribute to be aware off these thoughts...like exercise to be
able eto be more inclusive
Fefonz Quan: view 1 goes to one-task
orientation
Solobill Laville: (typo city, sorry)
Stim Morane: OK
Storm Nordwind: This time the counting
was not a distraction for me. There became no separation with the
breathing, the counting, the fan blowing, the curtains flapping... no
separation at all. No inclusiveness, in a way, because all was
already included!
Stim Morane: I'm just bringing this up
because a truly welcoming, inclusive view is beyond anything that
"we" could "do"
Stim Morane: And it is actually a fact,
a facet of reality and presence, not something we add.
Stim Morane: Great, Storm
Stim Morane: Exactly
Stim Morane: So for you, the answer is
that view 1 and even the limited version of 2 weren't needed because
they weren't prior, present
Stim Morane: Anyone else?
Stim Morane: OK. Well ... To extend
this point, I maintain that if you are able to learn to see your life
more directly, from time to time or even moment to moment, you will
see that the first, more control-oriented, approach emphasizing
limited horizons and agendas, is actually dominant in the way you
live your life, deal with situations, make choices etc.
Stim Morane: But it's not needed
Storm Nordwind: Can we convince our
bosses of that though? ;)
Stim Morane: So we'll discuss how to
let it go ... but as Storm pointed out, it's already "let go"
really.
Stim Morane: Let me know if you find a
way, Storm
Storm Nordwind: hehe!
Stim Morane: But really, I think you
have already convinced them.
Stim Morane: Anyway, something to
consider. My real question is Are we living in a way that's friendly
and inclusive, and that benefits from letting everything contribute,
or we still narrowly excluding or trimming things away? Investigating
this point could be an ongoing homework assignment. Up to you...
Stim Morane: OK. On to our 3rd practice
and View:
Stim Morane: Count the breath as
before, being disciplined and focused but also welcoming toward the
messy bits of our mind functions and perceptions that would normally
distract us... but attend _in particular_ to the aliveness you can
find within each part of the breath. Enter that aliveness and allow
it to open up to more of itself. Is there a limit to it?
Stim Morane: This is not about
imagining anything, only seeing more of what is there. The View here
is that this dimension of aliveness is open-ended and central to our
existence, our being. It even exists "inside" our
distractions! Practice that way.
Stim Morane: Please go ahead now
Stim Morane: OK ... perhaps we should
stop
Stim Morane: Here the issue is not only
to include, but to appreciate what we are including
Stim Morane: It's possible to miss that
Stim Morane: Comments? Reports?
Wester Kiranov: I find I sit up
straighter when I do this.
Stim Morane: Yes, I'm not surprised
Solobill Laville: :) Good here
Wester Kiranov: in a very relaxed way
Stim Morane: the chi redirect your
posture
Stim Morane: there is a serious point
here about aliveness ...
Stim Morane: normally we don't notice
it
Stim Morane: But when we do, does it
have limits?
Storm Nordwind: What kind of limits
Stim?
Stim Morane: People usually think
aliveness is contained within their organism, their biology
Stim Morane: and that most things are
EXCLUDED
Stim Morane: Is this true, as seen
directly?
Stim Morane: (this must all be based in
part on the previous exercise, of inclusion, of course)
Solobill Laville: The aliveness is
infinite, nothing is not included
Stim Morane: we have to include
everything in order to consider this properly
Stim Morane: That is what some ancient
practitioners found
Stim Morane: but here I'm only asking
...
Stim Morane: it's up to you to explore
Stim Morane: the point is, a view can
help to get us started
Stim Morane: as I said last time,
without View, practice is blind
Storm Nordwind: It is possible to get
caught up inthe bliss of the experience and to let yourself become
separate. On the other hand, it is possible to maintain that all
inclusiveness it seems.
Stim Morane: I see, yes
Solobill Laville nods to Storm
Stim Morane: We can discuss this later,
and fine-tune our approaches more.
Wol Euler: I find htat my sense of
"outside/inside" has been diminishing with each exercise.
Stim Morane: You have mentioned two of
the issues we'll need to consider
Stim Morane: Yes, Wol. Of course part
of it is just that we've been relaxing and practicing longer. The 1st
two minutes is pretty frazzled
Stim Morane: I wish we had more time
together
Wol Euler nudges Gen. Maybe we do need
eight days.
Solobill Laville: hehe
Stim Morane: :)Anyway, as I also said,
we ALWAYS have a view ... running in the background. In this series,
I want to help you become more sensitized to those views.
Stim Morane: Views can poison our
appreciation of life, or aid it
Stim Morane: And they also bear on our
understanding of theoretical issues
Stim Morane: Like, for instance, the
many things people debate when they talk about "contemplation
and science"
Stim Morane: For now, though ... would
some of you again try to do one or more of these exercises as
homework?
Wester Kiranov: sure
Wol Euler nods
Stim Morane: can you apply practices 2
and 3 in the process of ordinary life? Walking, working? Is it
helpful to try? Too difficult? How?
Storm Nordwind: Are they on the website
too Stim?
Scathach Rhiadra: yes
Stim Morane: Storm, we will post last
week's session and this week's shortly.
Storm Nordwind: thanks
Solobill Laville: Stim, how do you
relate this to "Right View" in Buddhist terms (8-fold
path)?
Wester Kiranov: i tried #3 when falling
asleep last week. I got to 4 times 21
Stim Morane: Last week I had so much
lag I had to leave, and this left the log a bit broken, But I've
fixed it.
Stim Morane: Many of my supposedly
advanced students never got past 3
Stim Morane: ... until I forced them to
train in this
Stim Morane: The practices I've devised
here are drawn from ancient training regimens
Solobill Laville: Chinese?
Stim Morane: The difference is that the
ancients would spend years doing one of these, and we spend a few
minutes.
Stim Morane: Yes, Chinese Taoists and
Buddhist
Storm Nordwind: You recommend the
counting as well when integrated with, say, working etc?
Stim Morane: Counting seems like a
drag, but it has a value
Artemisia Svoboda: I think it's almost
easier to do while doing something else, as well
Storm Nordwind: And the value?
Artemisia Svoboda: but it must be
something easy, not work
Stim Morane: It requires and also
brings in various features of mind that we need to notice more
Storm Nordwind nods
Stim Morane: Counting is, essentially,
our token action.
Stim Morane: ANd I want to wean you all
off of action.
Stim Morane: To do that, we need
something to work with.
Solobill Laville: ah
Stim Morane: Then we can refine the
dross away.
Stim Morane: This > "wu wei"
(in one understanding)
Stim Morane: It might seem strange to
claim that this is all connected to theoretical issues involving
science etc
Stim Morane: But I think it will matter
for us, going forward
Stim Morane: For me, there are no
"theoretical" abstract issues. Only concrete ones.
Stim Morane: Anyway, Homework: can you
apply practices 2 and 3 in the process of ordinary life? Walking,
working? Is it helpful to try? Too difficult? How?
Stim Morane: You don't need to
emphasize the counting when you're walking etc, but you should
consider the View components at least.
Stim Morane: Is life facilitated by
these Views?
Stim Morane: What kind of mind is
involved? What kind of Self? What is released?
Stim Morane: Questions before we stop?
Solobill Laville:Solobill Laville:
Stim, how do you relate this to "Right View" in Buddhist
terms (8-fold path)?
Stim Morane: We could talk about that
next week, if you like.
Solobill Laville: ok :)
Stim Morane: But the basic answer is
that "view" means "seeing clearly"
Stim Morane: It doesn't mean holding to
a doctrine
Stim Morane: But teachings can provide
well-informed or even inspired views.
Stim Morane: So we need to learn the
difference between "right View" and dogma
Solobill Laville nods
Stim Morane: a good view is just
reality
Stim Morane: That's where we'll finish,
someday ... :)
Solobill Laville: Thank you, Stim
Stim Morane: Time to stop for now?
Stim Morane: Thanks, Solo
Pila Mulligan: thanks Stim
Wol Euler: thank you, stim
Storm Nordwind: Thanks Stim
Scathach Rhiadra: thank you Stim
Wester Kiranov: thank you, stim
Bleu Oleander: thank you stim
Artemisia Svoboda: thank you, Stim
Stim Morane: Bye, everyone!
Wester Kiranov is Offline
Pila Mulligan: bye
Scathach Rhiadra: bye
Solobill Laville: Good night everyone!
Storm Nordwind: Bye Solo
Scathach Rhiadra: night Solo
Wol Euler: 'night solo, bye scath
Scathach Rhiadra: night Wol
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