Aurora Kitaj: Hi Lia Storm Nordwind: Please ensure he understands this will be recorded and may be published Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Wester genesis Zhangsun: Hey everyone Aurora Kitaj: Hi gen Lia Rikugun: hello hello Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Gen Wester Kiranov: hi Aurora Kitaj: Hello Scathach Storm Nordwind: Hi gen Tenk Kidd: Hello everyone :) Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Aurora, Lia Tarmel Udimo: hi all Pema Pera: Hi everybody! Scathach Rhiadra: Hey Tarmel:) Wester Kiranov: hi pema Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Pema Aurora Kitaj: Hi Tarmel and pema Tarmel Udimo: hi Aurora Kitaj: Hi Vico and Pila Tarmel Udimo: hi Vico Rabeni: hello genesis Zhangsun: Hi Everyone genesis Zhangsun: before we get started I would like to warn everyone who participates that they will become part of a recorded log Pila Mulligan is Online genesis Zhangsun: which will be posted on the Kira Institute website http://www.kira.org/ genesis Zhangsun: for more information on our organization and what we are doing please also see that site genesis Zhangsun: thanks! genesis Zhangsun: shall we get started? Pema Pera: Sure, thanks, Gen! Pema Pera: For those of you know here, it may be a bit odd to fall in the middle of the conversations we are having Wester Kiranov: new here? Pema Pera: even though it's only our third meeting, we've covered a lot of ground through, wat, a hundred (?) emails that we have exchanged so far Pema Pera: new here Pema Pera: sorry yes Pema Pera: none of us know to much here :-) Pema Pera: we are all learning Aurora Kitaj: yes indeed Pema Pera: let me make a few remarks about our initiative here, for old timers as well as new visitors Pema Pera: The MOST important part of these experiments is: you cannot do them wrong! We are in a stage of exploration, we are literally surveying new land, like Lewis and Clark. Pema Pera: The only thing we can do wrong, and will do wrong for quite a while, is miscommunicating. But that's okay, we have no choice! Pema Pera: We'll just happily keep miscommunicating until we develop a good-enough shared fresh and new vocabulary. Pema Pera: In the kitchen: cook until done. In the lab: make mistakes until done. Pema Pera: we are treating our life as a lab, in some sense Pema Pera: well, where shall we start today? Wester Kiranov: there are actually two things i would like to discuss Pema Pera: (by the way: our email group discussion is publicly readable on http://groups.google.com/group/kira-phenomenology-workshop Alfred Kelberry: hey! :) Wester Kiranov: first, it might be slightly ot, but i was very unhappy with how the gilles in or out topic went Alfred Kelberry: sorry, i'm late a bit Lia Rikugun: hello alfred Wester Kiranov: hi alfred Aurora Kitaj: Hello again Alfred Alfred Kelberry: glad to see all of you :) Alfred Kelberry: morning, pema Wester Kiranov: and second, maybe we could go back a bit on why exactly we are doing all this Alfred Kelberry: aw.. my seat is taken :) Wester Kiranov: just my 2 cents Tarmel Udimo: yu can have mine alfred Pema Pera: Do you want to say more about your first point, Wester? Alfred Kelberry: oh no, no worries :) Tarmel Udimo: I am happy to sit y the fire Pema Pera: What would you like to see changed, improved? Alfred Kelberry: thanks, vico :) Tenk Kidd: I'm sorry if I'm in yours, Alfred - first timer ignorance... Pema Pera: no assigned seats here Tenk :-) Tenk Kidd: ;) Alfred Kelberry: sorry, tenk. it's just this joke of mine. i have this spot by the fire that i like :) Alfred Kelberry: didn't know you're into ruby, pema :) Alfred Kelberry: although.. knowing your interest in japan :) Pema Pera: see http://www.artcompsci.org/ Alfred, for Ruby Pema Pera: Wester? Alfred Kelberry: have you met matz? Alfred Kelberry: sorry, offtopic. after the meeting. Pema Pera: genesis Zhangsun mentioned that you were very unhappy . . . . Alfred Kelberry: oh, wester? Wester Kiranov: ... about the gilles thing, yes Alfred Kelberry: ah.. yes, me too Wester Kiranov: i thought it escalated needlessly Alfred Kelberry: very much so Pema Pera: so what can we learn from this? Wester Kiranov: good question Pema Pera: what could have prevented escalation? Wester Kiranov: i thought at some time later in the "discussion" I could have listened more and explained less Tarmel Udimo: a few ground rules perhaps Tarmel Udimo: a few ground rules perhaps Tarmel Udimo: sorry mycompuer lagging Alfred Kelberry: maybe less rules? Pema Pera: :) Tarmel Udimo: there were none Alfred Kelberry: we're got too formal in that thread discussion Wester Kiranov: we did not Pema Pera: email is a very difficult medium to handle these kinds of questions Pema Pera: being in SL in real time is much better already Alfred Kelberry: especially when gilles himself is not present Pema Pera: and I think the obvious solution is for Gilles to have his own group Pema Pera: I heard he was happy with the invitation I sent him Scathach Rhiadra: has Gilles replied to the suggestion of a second group? Pema Pera: but he has been out of email contact for a few days Alfred Kelberry: holidays, i assume Pema Pera: I heard from someone else that Gilles was happy about the idea, but couldn't contact me yet Pema Pera: so we will hear more soon Tarmel Udimo: was it stated up front that to be part of the group you had to do the experiments Wester Kiranov: it sounds like a good idea, if gilles is ok with it Pema Pera: we had nothing up front Tarmel Alfred Kelberry: it's funny, with the new reports coming last few days, i forgot about this issue before wes brought it up Lia Rikugun: :) Pema Pera: shall we postpone this discussion until Gilles is with us, hopefully next week? Lia Rikugun: they were all so interesting Alfred Kelberry: yes, indeed Wester Kiranov: they were Pema Pera: and move to Wester's second point? Pema Pera: why we do this? Alfred Kelberry: yes, please, pema Pema Pera: well, why are we here? Anybody? Lia Rikugun: try to change our perspective Lia Rikugun: of seeing things Lia Rikugun: opening ou rminds Scathach Rhiadra: to explore Phenomenology? Lia Rikugun: :) Alfred Kelberry: to share our explorations and find our way to the "seen" experiment Alfred Kelberry: at least for today :) Alfred Kelberry: oh, have you read my suggestion, pema? Natel Avro is Online Pema Pera: My personal view, and that's just me, is: phenomenology, the study of phenomena, can help us to see more of what is going on in daily life, on a raw and direct level. Pema Pera: Practical implcations of that: Pema Pera: instead of solving problems we encounter directly, ignoring our too-narrow mindset Pema Pera: we can learn to first open up our way of looking at anything at all, as Lia said Pema Pera: and then most of our problems will be seen to be solved already, or most easier Pema Pera: But I'm sure others have other perspectives, I'd love to hear those too. Alfred Kelberry: you've pretty much summed it up, pema. on a higher abstraction level :) Aurora Kitaj: Pema, I certainly need to improve my problem solving skills so any insights are very welcome Pema Pera: the main point is to see how enormously narrow our way of looking at the world is Alfred Kelberry: for me it's to get a broader view to the world and every day phenomena Pema Pera: we look through a few tiny slits, but we can easily open up -- very quickly in fact Tarmel Udimo: my understanding was through this process we will be learning how to make direct contact with Being Prospero Frobozz is Offline Pema Pera: Well, that is a topic for different meetings, Tarmel :-) Tarmel Udimo: ohhh Pema Pera: we are starting here from daily life Storm Nordwind: I have a pragmatic point of view: what can Pheno contribute to me, and what can I contribute to it. Practical experimentation may help answer that question. idanthology Sandalwood: hello & happy new year Pema Pera: from what is given immediately: subjects and objects Tarmel Udimo: hi idant idanthology Sandalwood: am i 2 late for the discussion? Lia Rikugun: happy new year!!! Alfred Kelberry: that's a bit of a leap, tarmel. please, wait a bit :) Pema Pera: Yes, Storm, that's the main question for me too Prospero Frobozz is Online Pema Pera: Shall we talk about this mysterious 2b) experiment, the "seen" variation? Alfred Kelberry: no, ida, we've just started. please, take a seat. idanthology Sandalwood accepted your inventory offer. Pema Pera: I have been trying to describe it, but perhaps others can try to summarize 2b) in their own words? Alfred Kelberry: my suggestion, pema: "i've seen maybe 5 times already when you tried to give this explanation (happily, i served as a reference a few times :) so, to ease your life, and life of others (especially new members), it would be good to write a _concise_ description of "seeing" and "seen" experiments, with an emphasis on troublesome "active/passive role reversal", and make it "sticky" (not sure if it's possible here, though)." Alfred Kelberry: hi, pros Pema Pera: (just got an IM from Quen: Gilles tried to join us, could not get in, but wanted to tell us that he is very enthusiastic about starting a general philosophy group, to get together here in the Kira Cafe -- great news!) Alfred Kelberry: great news, pema! Prospero Frobozz: Gilles couldn't get into SL, or couldn't get into this sim? Wester Kiranov: that is great news for sure Pema Pera: I've tried to give that concise description, Alfred . . . perhaps someone else should try now? Pema Pera: no, Pros, local problems for GIlles with internet Prospero Frobozz: ok Pema Pera: 2) Subject-Object reversal: there are two variations, the "seeing" and the "seen" variant:
2a) in the "seeing" variation, we remain a subject, as in 1), and the only difference is that we try to put ourselves in the position of the object (what you called the pleasant de-centeredness). So what is reversed here is the *position* of the subject, BUT we firmly remain a subject.
2b) in the "seen" variation, we do not change our position, we remain where we were in 1), but we reverse our *role*, in that we are no longer the active subject, but rather we take on a more passive object role. We are seen period, nothing more. Alfred Kelberry: the key point is to make it public for everyone in one place Pema Pera: This was my concise attempt, Alfred, how about other ones? Wester Kiranov: my take on 2b: you try to revserse just subject and object roles, without doing anything about the content of those roles. Alfred Kelberry: not everyone is going through chunks of posts Pema Pera: good point, Alfred, we may need a wiki instead Pema Pera: yes, Wester, we have to talk more about what we mean with "subject" Alfred Kelberry: new members haven't read it and went down the same "seeing" path i did Alfred Kelberry: we could post it on kira.org Pema Pera: a wiki would allow all of us to contribute Wester Kiranov: a wili sounds very good Alfred Kelberry: well, that would be ideal Wester Kiranov: *wiki Pema Pera: Alfred, do you volunteer for setting up one? Pema Pera: You seem to have abundant energy :) Alfred Kelberry: sure, i can do that Pema Pera: great! Wester Kiranov: wow Alfred Kelberry: ha.. i wish :) Pema Pera: we wish, you do Pema Pera: :) Alfred Kelberry: the question is.. where? :) Pema Pera: perhaps you can look around; there are many free or almost-free wikis Alfred Kelberry: aha, those. ok. Pema Pera: and report in our email group Pema Pera: Coming back to the "seen" experiment Alfred Kelberry: i thought maybe wiki.kira.org or something Pema Pera: no need to connect it directly to kira Pema Pera: we can have a pointer from the Kira page to wherever it lives Alfred Kelberry: it could be useful for other kira projects, too Pema Pera: wikis are easy to generate :) Pema Pera: best to keep projects separate, for now at least Pema Pera: to not confuse what is happening where Pema Pera: Coming back to the "seen" experiment Pema Pera: some of you did that, but many of you had difficulty figuring out what I meant with that Tarmel Udimo: I was confused about your response to myself and gen and mike? Pema Pera: in what way, Tarmel? Pema Pera: ah, about going beyond subject and object? Tarmel Udimo: i wasn't being an object? Pema Pera: Yes, Storm did that too, in fact Tarmel Udimo: okay Pema Pera: well, the point of this particular experiment is not to drop the subject/object split Pema Pera: that would be a different, harder experiment Pema Pera: but rather to reverse the roles, keeping the split Tarmel Udimo: I think to get to 'beyond' one had to first be the object Pema Pera: many ways, Tarmel, it can happen spontaneously Pema Pera: and it often happens, but then we equally spontaneously forget :) Pema Pera: (it doesn't fit into our memory banks very well) Tarmel Udimo: okay just read the above...the point of this particular experiment is not to drop the subject/object split and now understand Pema Pera: I think it will be nice to keep trying for a few weeks until we are all on the same page Tarmel Udimo: okay Pema Pera: and know what 2b) is, how you do it Pema Pera: I thought about one variation: Lia Rikugun: the same experiments with the spoon? Pema Pera: perhaps taking a far away object rather than a spoon Pema Pera: a mountain, or far away building Pema Pera: and perhaps even many objects at the same time Pema Pera: you can infact do subject-object reversal with ALL that you see . . . . Lia Rikugun: i think many objects at the same time is very inetersting Storm Nordwind: Many subjects may look at the same object. When I became the object, I was conscious that the subject could have been anything in the room, and quite possibly was! Alfred Kelberry: many objects.. maybe not so soon? :) Pema Pera: hahaha, Alfred Alfred Kelberry: i can hardly handle one :) Pema Pera: each of us can choose their pace Pema Pera: yes, Storm Pema Pera: and yes, Lia Pema Pera: AHAHA Wester Kiranov: we could keep it at one spoon and one free form Pema Pera: yours is not to handle, Alfred Pema Pera: when you are an object :) Alfred Kelberry: well, "handle" Tarmel Udimo: good point storm genesis Zhangsun: I would like to suggest some guidelines to maintain some consistency to the lab reports? Pema Pera: good point, Gen! genesis Zhangsun: such as perhaps using similar objects or perhaps including a time reference Aurora Kitaj: yes genesis Zhangsun: I don't know if it matters but perhaps it would be interesting to see how long people are spending on this genesis Zhangsun: for me I know it takes me at least 30 minutes just to settle down/in genesis Zhangsun: to do the experiment Pema Pera: I suggest that you also do them in one-minute intervals Pema Pera: even though it may be interesting to do them longer Alfred Kelberry: and to focus on our goal - the "seen" experiment. and also exclude the confusion between the "seeing". i suggest to leave just one, the former. Pila Mulligan: 2(b) or not 2(b), is that the question? Pema Pera: shorter has the advantage that it can flip you out of the usual state Lia Rikugun: what do you mean my one minute interval pema? genesis Zhangsun: :) at Pila Alfred Kelberry: pila! :) Tarmel Udimo: hahahah Storm Nordwind throws a cushion at Pila Pema Pera: haha, Pila! Wester Kiranov: :D Pema Pera: So here is my suggestion: let the job be to figure out as clearly as we can what 2b) might be Pema Pera: for one week, this one week Pema Pera: perhaps with far away objects Pema Pera: perhaps with a spoon Pema Pera: perhaps with all objects that you see Pema Pera: perhaps . . gasp . . . with all objects around you, even behind your back Alfred Kelberry: i like a mountain Pema Pera: Or do we want more structure than that? Prospero Frobozz: I missed a few weeks -- thanks to Aurora for filling me in with backchat from today. But, can we summarize what this 2b experiment is? I'm kinda getting a vague sense from context, but it remains very vague to me. Pema Pera: 2) Subject-Object reversal: there are two variations, the "seeing" and the "seen" variant:
2a) in the "seeing" variation, we remain a subject, as in 1), and the only difference is that we try to put ourselves in the position of the object (what you called the pleasant de-centeredness). So what is reversed here is the *position* of the subject, BUT we firmly remain a subject.
2b) in the "seen" variation, we do not change our position, we remain where we were in 1), but we reverse our *role*, in that we are no longer the active subject, but rather we take on a more passive object role. We are seen period, nothing more. Prospero Frobozz: Oh, sorry, I did see that :) Wester Kiranov: maybe a bit more clarification on the amount of imagination needed? Prospero Frobozz: I guess I'm still just confused :) Tarmel Udimo: structure and ground rules are different :-) Prospero Frobozz: Could you potentially give a concrete example? Alfred Kelberry: pros, you're not the only one :) Pema Pera: I think there is no answer, Wester, we are exploring Pema Pera: Pros, did you read the 20 or so reports? genesis Zhangsun: perhaps we can refine a bit more what we mean by "role" v. position Pema Pera: they are all pretty concrete Alfred Kelberry: pros, http://groups.google.com/group/kira-phenomenology-workshop Prospero Frobozz: Ah, OK Prospero Frobozz: I will look at those, thanks Prospero Frobozz is not in the google group Alfred Kelberry: you can find experiments done by the members there Pema Pera: anyone can read, Pros genesis Zhangsun: yes but I think it is fine anyway to go back to square one for Pros and all of us Alfred Kelberry: it's public Pema Pera: publicly readable Pema Pera: would you like me to add you, Pros? genesis Zhangsun: what do we all think position means v. role? Prospero Frobozz: Pema : yes please genesis Zhangsun: for me in 2a position switching still feels role switching/role playing Lia Rikugun: role is either subject or object right Lia Rikugun: ? Lia Rikugun: and position where the attention lies Pema Pera: yes, I think 2b) is far more profound Pema Pera: in asking you to give up the subject role altogether Pema Pera: yes, Lia, position is where you feel you are Leandra Kohnke is Online Alfred Kelberry: gen, for me position is consciousness and role is either active or passive - the observing entity Pema Pera: your location Tarmel Udimo: 2b) allows you to disengage from your 'role" Pema Pera: yes Lia Rikugun: pema you mentioned something about one minute intervals for the experiment Lia Rikugun: i did not understand what you meant exatcly ithink Pema Pera: yes, I recommend in fact not to spend too long on the experiment, at least not every time Pema Pera: the switch takes no time Pema Pera: once you get a sense, you can do it in less than a second Pema Pera: spending a very long time is likely to make it harder Alfred Kelberry: you spend too much time and you may end up napping :) Lia Rikugun: hehe Pema Pera: YET it can also help you to drop your resistance (spending more time) Pema Pera: no general rules here :) Tarmel Udimo: :-) genesis Zhangsun: I would say though that for me anyway who has no training in this I would feel that a one minute switch may lead me to some false conclusions Lia Rikugun: ok i think i understzand Lia Rikugun: maybe spending too much time, you will try too hard Pema Pera: that would be fine, Gen Pema Pera: all of research is producing false conclusions Pema Pera: many of them Pema Pera: you write them down genesis Zhangsun: yes this level of engagement/time for engagement was actually my insight of the week Pema Pera: comparing ntoes with othes Storm Nordwind: I think we are at the stage when 'false' does not yet a have a meaning Pema Pera: ! genesis Zhangsun: true Storm Tarmel Udimo: I agree Pema Pera: trying to get things right right away is wrong :-) Wester Kiranov: and true, does that have ameaning? genesis Zhangsun: I just would feel that we also don't want to get sort of too contented with ourselves by convincing ourselves that a minute is enough Storm Nordwind: true is simply authentic Prospero Frobozz: How about "useful" versus "not useful" or "less useful" conclusions? Pema Pera: true, Gen genesis Zhangsun: it is certainly different for everyone Pema Pera: yes, Pros! genesis Zhangsun: I think that is a good way to thing about it Pros genesis Zhangsun: *think Wester Kiranov: i do still feel there might be some confusion on the meaning of "role" Pema Pera: yes, Wester? Wester Kiranov: object/subject is a role, but spoon/me are roles too Pema Pera: (and then we should end; it's 3 pm) Tarmel Udimo: except that as storm pointed out each of us is having an authentic (hopefully) experience Alfred Kelberry: ah, tempus fugit Tenk Kidd: Thank you all, for tolerating an active listener. Pema Pera: but who is giving the role spoon to the spoon, Wester? Pema Pera: hehe, Tenk :) Pema Pera: you;re very welcome genesis Zhangsun: perhaps we could all consider this week what the difference between role and position is for us as we do the exploration? Wester Kiranov: when you try to make the spoon subject, you as an object are still "me" genesis Zhangsun: What is the exploration for the week anyway> Tarmel Udimo: heheheh Alfred Kelberry: tarmel, it is authentic if you're engaged in it Pema Pera: Gen, I suggested this: Storm Nordwind would like a quick summary of the task for the week Pema Pera: So here is my suggestion: let the job be to figure out as clearly as we can what 2b) might be Pema Pera: for one week, this one week Pema Pera: perhaps with far away objects Pema Pera: perhaps with a spoon Pema Pera: perhaps with all objects that you see Pema Pera: perhaps . . gasp . . . with all objects around you, even behind your back Pema Pera: is that okay with everybody? Lia Rikugun: yes Alfred Kelberry: to give a definition of the "seen" experiment? Tarmel Udimo: yes alfred that was in response to the term useful or not... Prospero Frobozz is having a very, very, very hard time resisting saying "There is no spoon" over and over again genesis Zhangsun: may I request that people add how much time they are spending too? Prospero Frobozz: :) Storm Nordwind laughs and sympathises with Pros! Tarmel Udimo: smiles Alfred Kelberry: pros, actually.. you're the first one to say it! :) Alfred Kelberry: and i've been waiting for the whole week! :) Alfred Kelberry gives pros a cookie Pema Pera: Gen, we'll try to add time! Prospero Frobozz saves the cookie in his browser cache Alfred Kelberry: hehe Pema Pera: thank you everybody for coming over! Alfred Kelberry: thank you, pema! Lia Rikugun: thank you Alfred Kelberry: sadly, it's been to ofast :/ Storm Nordwind: Tempus fugit - - Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. Lia Rikugun: it was very inetersting Pema Pera: As Alfred reminded us, we have Happy Hour here every day, 2 pm Wester Kiranov: thank you everybody Tenk Kidd: Thank you. :) Tarmel Udimo: thanks all Pema Pera: we can continue each day at that time, if we like Alfred Kelberry: yes, please, come Aurora Kitaj: Thanks everyone Pema Pera: or after talks when they happen at that time Prospero Frobozz will come when he can, but often has a complicated schedule genesis Zhangsun: Thanks all see you next week Alfred Kelberry: hint: we can discuss pheno _even_ without pema :) Pema Pera: I hope so !!!! Storm Nordwind: "There is no Pema..." Alfred Kelberry: pros, no holidays at linden lab? :) Alfred Kelberry: haha Pema Pera: :) Alfred Kelberry: storm :) Storm Nordwind: "...only a spoon" :) Prospero Frobozz: alfred : well, today is one actually :) But I was late because I was out getting catfood, and didn't get back until after this started. (Oops!) Tarmel Udimo: laughing Prospero Frobozz blames the cats Alfred Kelberry can't wait to do the pema reversal :) Lia Rikugun: :D Lia Rikugun: good night everybody
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